| An Interview with Leicha Bragg | |
| “Int” refers to Mary the interviewer and “RES” refers to the respondent Leicha Bragg | |
| Int: | I’m interviewing Leicha Bragg, who is a lecturer in Mathematics Education and IT in the Faculty of Education. Welcome Lisa. |
| RES: | Thank you. |
| Int: | Could you tell us a little bit about your general philosophy of teaching and learning, and how your beliefs have been shaped? |
| RES: | I guess I approach teaching, to start off with, as sort of like a beginning teacher, I approach it in the way that I thought best, was the way I learnt. So that’s the way I sort of began looking at teaching. So I loved interacting with others and communicating with them, and learning off, you know, my peers. So I actually felt that – that was a way in which I started to approach teaching as that, the students in my class, I wanted to get them to interact because I felt that helped me learn. Also I, you know, enjoyed reading – actually interestingly not as a child, just, I enjoyed reading how to make things sort of books, so I actually sort of use that a lot in my classes as well because I felt that if I actually – the reading component of it was quite important. And time to reflect on what you had learned. So I actually tried to employ what worked for me best then implemented that in my teaching. However, I also realised that as you go along not everyone learns in the same fashion. So I started to sort of, I guess through readings, talking to students, talking to my peers, looked at the diverse ways in which people learn. I would just ask them how, you know, best they learn and then I would try to include that in my teaching. So I… |
| Int: | So you would ask your students how they learned best? |
| RES: | Yeah. Yep. And, you know, what sort of works for them. I’d ask, you know, fellow teachers, you know, how learned. I, you know, at home I would ask my parents, my brothers and sisters. So it was actually – I was trying to get a sort of a range of different opinions on that and then try and implement that in the classroom. I also know that for myself I enjoy being entertained and find that I really become involved when I’m entertained. And, you know, when you see a lecturer who, you know, has got a bit of comedy about them and a sense of, you know, a bit of personality, I really get involved and am drawn in. So I guess I try to incorporate that too. I mean, I always am up for a laugh so I try to incorporate that into my lectures, and just generally have fun. So I want to be there and have fun with the students and I think that actually sort of helps me to… helps me with my learning and also with my teaching. |
| Int: | Now, Leicha, you have developed a wholly online unit. Can you tell us what deliberations led you to do that? |
| RES: | When the opportunity arose, I had already been doing some wholly online units in IT, and so when the opportunity arose for me to do that in maths, or it came up as a subject that could be implemented in the Faculty of Education, I jumped at the chance. The reason being is that I wanted to see if we could employ this medium effectively to teach mathematics. I mean, I really enjoy face-to-face teaching, but I really – I wanted to give it a go, and I also wanted to do it from a learning perspective for myself. I guess, in a way, it was sort of a little bit self-centred too because I wanted to see, you know, learn a bit more about teaching online. And I thought by throwing myself in the deep end that would be the best way to do it. And it was just really trying to think about different ways and different pedagogical approaches, I guess. |
| Int: | So did you sort of volunteer to do this unit? |
| RES: | Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And interestingly I didn’t have much competition and, it’s funny, because I really thought that a lot of people would be eager to participate, but… |
| Int: | Most shied away from it? |
| RES: | Yeah. Yeah, which I thought was interesting because to me I thought it was just a great opportunity. We had the support of Learning Services, and I thought it would be, you know, people would be enthusiastic about it. And, well, which in fact the maths people have been. So, yep, which has been terrific. |
| Int: | All right, now, could you just outline the components of your online environment in terms of the content, the discussions, the assessment and why you did things the way you did? |
| RES: | Okay, what I do have online are e-lectures and how I’ve developed those is from a position of – when I left, I was formally in Australian Catholic University and I moved over to Deakin, and I had always said, oh we should put a ‘super unit’ together, I used to refer to it as with my colleagues. And we would share our resources, and I was saying, well, we are all teaching, you know, students to become maths teachers and excellent maths teachers so we should be sharing our resources amongst – our expertise for my, you know, maths peers and colleagues. So I had wanted to develop that and anytime I had a lecture coming up I’d say, oh, you know, email someone to say, what have you got on this slide? Have you got a slide on this? Or do you have some activities on that? Between my friends at ACU, my supervisor at La Trobe, people at Monash. So then when the idea came for the e-lectures, I thought well this is a golden opportunity to develop this super unit. So I contacted lecturers in all the universities in Melbourne who have an education faculty. So that’s eight universities, and I got them to contribute by filming their favourite lecture or something they’re interested in at the moment and thought was worthwhile for final year students. So what I have is experts in the field who have donated their time to produce these wonderful lectures for the students. And so now we have a great body of work. |
| Int: | Yes, it’s a very impressive group of people. |
| RES: | Yes, I was actually amazed at how many people came on board. |
| Int: | What about the discussions? How did you design those and what purpose did they serve? |
| RES: | Well, the way we’ve designed the discussions for maths education is I have created – actually, I have created sort of like three discussion forums as such. The first discussion forum is the main forum for information, just to inform the students what’s going on. I also, you know, say I’ve got an interesting website I just, as I was just doing just before you came in. I found an interesting website, so I’ve put that information on that for people to have a look at. Any student queries come through there. It would be just like you would with, sort of, more the management side, but also providing resources as well, as I go along. So just to alert the students to different resources that I’ve found or interesting things that have come up. I have another discussion forum which basically, under that I have each one of the e-lectures, so all 13. They have their own discussion space. So for people who would like to go in, who have watched the e-lecture and want to go in and discuss that. |
| Int: | So that’s optional is it? |
| RES: | That is optional, yes, yep. Actually, to participate online in the first discussion forum and this second one, that is optional. The third discussion forum we have for our group assignment. So I have created 60 groups with our students across Burwood, Geelong and Warrnambool, and I have created 60 group, private group discussion areas for them to… |
| Int: | How many in the group? |
| RES: | Four. And they’re final year students so it’s unlikely that we’re going to have a drop out at this stage. So they do need to participate on that because, particularly for the Burwood students, who – sorry, we have randomly assigned the participants to the groups, so they actually may never have met these people before, or they may have and still don’t know who they are because they’ve only got a name. So we’ve actually created an environment for them to, basically, they have to use the online discussion forums to get going on the group assignments. Interestingly, I’ve noticed that a lot of students have started using the discussion forum, but they’ve used that to contact them to say, oh we’ll meet on campus at this time. So they haven’t got their head around using the actual online discussion forum as yet to help with their group assignments, which was really interesting to discover. The Geelong and the Warrnambool students, I think, probably know each other a bit better, so they will already know other group members, especially at Warrnambool because it’s such a small, sort of, group. But for the Burwood people it’s been quite interesting because they really don’t know each other. |
| Int: | Okay, now what about assessment? You’ve mentioned that assignment. How many other pieces? |
| RES: | We have – the group assignment is the first one and we have a second assignment which is an individual assignment looking at online games and how to use the online environment in the maths classroom. So online activities basically. And both assignments need to be uploaded onto DSO, so there’s no hard copies whatsoever. Because of my experience in IT units that have been wholly online, what I have put together is an assignment test run. So in the first week I’ve asked the students to go in, read – I’ve created a link for how to submit an assignment and then I’ve created a dummy test run assignment. So they need to go in there, upload a file and then I send back a result and all of them HDs so they’re all rapt! So basically it’s just a dummy mark just so they know, okay, this is how you do it. And probably about I’d say four fifths of them have been able to upload a file and about a fifth of them haven’t been able to do that. So I send it back and they try again. Yeah, so hopefully that will help them… |
| Int: | So this is through the DSO functionality you’re using? |
| RES: | Absolutely. Yep. And I find it – because it gets to assignment time and they panic, and they are not sure if the assignment’s gone through and I get lots and lots and lots of emails, so I was trying to… |
| Int: | ‘Did you get my assignment?’ Is that what they’re asking? |
| RES: | Yeah. Absolutely. And then you answer one and they’ll put it up, or they’ll put it up on DSO, ‘have you got my assignment?’ and I’ll go and check and then say, yes, so as soon as I say yes to that person I’ve got another 40 people that want me to check as well and on this environment I’ve got 242 people. But hopefully the fact that they’ve already done the test run, that might help them get through the first real uploading. |
| Int: | Now, what were some of the design factors you considered when you were developing your unit, you know, as in your choice of media and the way you used the different components of DSO? |
| RES: | I guess, in a way, it was just my own knowledge of DSO. I realised there’s so much more to DSO that I don’t know yet. So I guess at this stage – well, there’s two aspects. I had to use what I am actually aware of to date, and I had to make it simple enough for the students to be able to engage with it as well. So I think in that way it sort of dictated it a bit. I’m also very much aware that say the next time I go through this, there’ll be aspects of DSO which I’ll want to refine, and as I get to learn DSO more I’ll put those into practice, but I guess it’s just a matter of getting my own head around it and seeing what I can use and what’s useful for the students as well. |
| Int: | And you’ve actually put your e-lectures on CD-ROM, haven’t you? |
| RES: | Yep. All the e-lectures went onto CD-ROM and they can access them through DSO as well as online, however, because of the sheer size and some students don’t have broadband, it was necessary to post them on CD-ROM. |
| Int: | So it’s an access issue. |
| RES: | Yes, purely for students who don’t have access to broadband. |
| Int: | But they have an option? |
| RES: | Yep. And interestingly our students are out on teaching rounds at the moment and the CD has come in while they’re on teaching rounds, the second part of the CD, the second of the three parts of it. So for those students who haven’t been able to come in to pick up their CD, they’ve been able to access it at least online too, which has been great. It’s nice to be able to have those options. And I guess money was a consideration too, especially with creating the e-lectures because, you know, that becomes quite expensive. So, I mean, there’s so much you’d love to do and love to be able to create, but it’s just the actual also, you know, funds that can limit what you can do. |
| Int: | So in what way do you think the use of multimedia, per se, will help students learn? |
| RES: | Well, the video in itself, I guess because of the people who I’ve actually got on the e-lectures, I guess that has been a huge advantage because of just the sheer expertise that they now have access to, from experts across the State, so I think for that they really have a huge advantage over just – I have expertise in certain areas but not all the areas of mathematics, so I think that really is to an advantage for the students. I thinks also that, you know, you can sit in a lecture and phase out a bit if it’s live, and if it’s actually on a CD-ROM as well, but you also have the chance to then, to go back and review it and think, oh hang on, what did that person say? Oh I remember they did a great activity in that lecture or they mentioned something about that, and you can review it at your leisure and… |
| Int: | As many times as you like. |
| RES: | And so that is a huge advantage, you know? If you’re sick you miss a lecture, and with e-lectures you’re not going to miss anything. |
| Int: | And you can stop and replay. |
| RES: | Absolutely. And I think that’s an excellent – as with the PowerPoints. I do that with all my face-to-face lectures as it is. I always put all my Powerpoint lectures online before the lecture and I notice that all my students come with it already printed out and then add notes as they go. So I’m already using it for the face to face, so I think this actually gives them the, you know, option to review those, sort of, the PowerPoint as well. I guess it’s that whole thing about reviewing it at your leisure and being able to do it at your own pace. So we’ve only got 50 minutes to give a lecture and you have to be on board and tuned in at that time for the face to face. And if you’re not, you’re really sort of wasting your own time and you miss out. With tutes, you know, if you’re just not switched on that day you’re going to miss the information, but here you’ve got this, you know, wonderful resource that you can do when you’re up to the task. The only downside that I can see of this is that some people need to be at the tutes, which will force them to, you know, engage with the activities. Maybe sometimes the fact that we’re not saying, hey, you have to have a look at these; you must go through these lectures. They mightn’t actually look at them, which is their choice and their disadvantage really, but they also have a choice not to turn up to tutes or lectures. But this, you know, I’m really pleased and excited by what we’ve put together. |
| Int: | What role do you expect these e-lectures to have in their learning? Is that the main content of the unit? |
| RES: | No, it’s not the main content. |
| Int: | Or are you building content in the discussion? |
| RES: | We’re building content in the discussion. We have got – I think a part of the assignments are actually helping to facilitate a lot of discussion as well because we’ve got assignments on equity and diversity. And I’ve put a lot of links, URLs, within a folder for equity and diversity. I’ve got lots of readings in there as well. Every one of the e-lectures, for instance, has web links that may have been mentioned in the lecture. Or I’ve just researched that area and found web links. So they’ve got an e-lecture, they’ve got web links. Every one of them has at least I think about four or five readings associated with it, which are there as a resource. I’m not saying the students have to read these readings, but they’re there as a resource because, you know, if they are interested in this, they’ve got that for, you know, later on down the track. They’ve got that for when they leave here. Also every one of the e-lecturers who contributed also get this resource to use in their own classroom. That was part of our deal for them contributing. So some of the students have commented that there’s just so much information and so many readings and, yeah, just so many resources. |
| Int: | So you haven’t used selective release? |
| RES: | No. |
| Int: | So they get all the resources up front? |
| RES: | Yes. They’re all on the e-lectures... But interestingly we haven’t said that they have to read all these readings. Some of them have just assumed that, because I’ve gone overboard with, you know, providing a lot of resources, a lot of readings and, you know, I’ve really I think researched it well. But it’s interesting because they’re now complaining because there’s too many resources, and you think well, oh my god. |
| Int: | Do you give them guidelines though about what the key resources are and what they might dip into for…? |
| RES: | No we haven’t. |
| Int: | Or is that up to them? |
| RES: | Well, it was up to them. And I think that maybe something that needs refining, but I can never, you know, an argument saying that we’ve provided too much information, I, you know, if you’re afraid of learning you’re in the wrong job, you know. So I think though we need to sort of say, okay, these are the key readings. It’s the first time we’ve had this unit, so, and it’s only week three now. |
| Int: | So what were your expectations in respect to the initial offering? |
| RES: | Given the content of some of those e-lectures, I was hoping that the students would really see how the expertise of people throughout the State will help them become a better teacher. We’ve got one lecture that’s on standards for teaching, so looking at, you know, becoming an excellent maths teacher. And it’s a fantastic lecture by Barb Clarke at Monash. And I thought – I was hoping that, you know, students will see that and think, oh right, these are some of the things that I can do to become a good teacher. We’ve got a great lecture by Anne Doughton on planning and how you go about whole school level and your grade planning. And for students who are just about to go out, it’s just really important that they have that information and can refer to it next year and the year after and down the track. And that’s the beauty of actually having it on the CD-ROM. DSO will be shut off to them, but they’ll have that CD-ROM that they’ll be able to use. |
| Int: | That’s important. |
| RES: | You know, like, there’s a huge push for the standards for instance of excellent teaching at the moment. We look at the MAV [Mathematical Association of Victoria] Association for their conference at the end of the year, you need to be referring to some of the points, and each paper has to have some reference to the standards. The presentations need to have a reference to the standards. So the fact that these students then have that access to that, I think, and can refer to it later on, that’s really valuable. |
| Int: | You’ve been teaching – this is the third week, isn’t it? |
| RES: | Yes. |
| Int: | So what have been your experiences so far? What do you feel is working well and what are the issues? |
| RES: | What is working well, I think, is that the students across the campuses have an opportunity to interact online. They have an opportunity to interact with lecturers who they wouldn’t normally. So I’m dealing with Geelong students and Warrnambool students. So I think that’s a good way of making a cohesive group. I have put up there a ‘say hello on DSO’ and asked the students to reply to that and just getting them to tell the group something about themselves. And I think that’s actually worked because it has been a nice sort of way of getting to know the students because we don’t really get to know them that well in the tutes. I guess from a Burwood perspective, you know, you have 180 students. It’s pretty hard to get to know them, but getting just a bit of a feel for their background, where they’re at, you know, what’s going on, I think that has worked well. We’ve had extremely positive feedback regarding the e-lectures and the content in them and so that has just been wonderful because that really was my baby. So I’m really rapt that there is such positive feedback and people have commented that these are some of the best lectures they’ve ever seen. So I’m really thrilled with that. I guess maybe some of the negatives have been – we have fourth years at this stage. They appear to be highly stressed. They’re on teaching rounds. |
| Int: | They’re on teaching rounds already in the semester, are they? |
| RES: | Yep. Burwood students are already out on teaching rounds, and they’ve been given an assignment and they are just, I think, feeling overwhelmed with – sorry, this is their first wholly online unit, so they’re overwhelmed with that and, especially at this stage of their student career, it mightn’t have been the best idea right at the end. What I was surprised about is that a lot of them have said that they’ve never used DSO before. |
| Int: | Really? |
| RES: | Yes, so now that actually has put me on the back foot because I was expecting I had students who had expertise with DSO. I didn’t realise I was dealing with beginners for DSO. Messages like, ‘this is the first time I’ve ever been on DSO’. I’m like, wow! I had no idea. So for me that was really disheartening because I had beliefs that they were already at some certain standard, had basic knowledge of DSO. So I’ve got to deal with students who have got no knowledge of DSO and therefore they find this really quite challenging, and it’s probably not the time for them to be – they’ve got a lot to deal with, you know, teaching rounds, huge teaching rounds, being out finding a job, you know, finishing everything off, and now they do get a little bit sick of school. They’re like grade sixes. Grade sixes in term four are pretty hard to handle. And it’s surprising how negative some students are towards online learning. And, you know, I’m trying to tell them that this is an excellent experience for them to go out and say on job interviews, I have experience with, you know, online learning. And for the future that they will then be able to reflect on what we did here and think about how they can incorporate it in their classroom, because they have to do that in the assignment. So I’m hoping that they actually can then, well, will see the value of what we’re doing. |
| Int: | Did they have an appreciation of, you know, children’s interaction with technologies of all kinds, and the fact that it’s just so much a part of their lives? |
| RES: | Do you know that doesn’t come up in the maths? Interestingly, it comes up in my IT units, but not at all in the maths units so far. I think, it’s funny, they seem so centred on where they’re at at the moment and not actually about teaching. It’s really interesting. I am getting feedback on some of the activities in maths that they’ve been doing in the classroom, but most of the comments have been basically all about them and, you know, how hard and difficult their life is at the moment. And, you know, trying to develop a discussion about what’s worthwhile in IT in the classroom and what’s working is really sort of a little bit difficult at the moment. So in that respect, and because they feel that there’s too much of a workload and all the other issues, you get a few negative people in there and they are stirring the pot and winding a few people up. So that has actually sort of been a little bit – it’s been a bit hard to take especially, I guess, because of the amount of hours that you put into it and then you’re receiving such negative feedback, and you’re sort of thinking, well, you know, what more do you do? And one interesting comment is one woman was complaining because it wasn’t face-to-face and she’s paying $500 for this, and… for her fees. And I’m thinking, well, they’ve actually had 50 hours of me on DSO last week. |
| Int: | Plus they’ve got access to expert lecturers from other institutions. |
| RES: | Yep, but they don’t think they’re getting their money’s worth because they don’t see me for two hours standing in front of them in a tute. And I’m, like, I’ve put in – like it would be a, you know, a hell of a lot quicker and easier for me to do face-to-face and yet it’s just incredible that they actually see that as being not, that it’s sort of like a bludge for us, like, it couldn’t be further from the truth. And interestingly this week there’s been a little bit more of a turnaround because as the students have said, oh you know the due date here is too soon, I’m having problems with finding my group members, so we’ve adjusted, we’ve been flexible, we’ve moved the assignment dates, we’ve said, right, we’ll contact students. We’ve really, I think, worked in well with the students and it’s interesting that this week they’ve seen that we’ve been responding quickly. We’ve been listening to their needs. We’ve consulted them about changing things. We’ve said, right, what is your feedback on this? And I think they’ve actually seen that we’re really quite flexible and that it is starting to work well. I think that their initial misgivings about the unit have dissipated somewhat. Interestingly, they were actually quite negative coming in, from my feedback from other lecturers about coming in to the unit being wholly online. Well, they came in as a position of being highly negative and they were up against someone who is highly enthusiastic, so we’re sort of meeting finally and, you know, it’s… |
| Int: | It will be interesting to see how it all pans out. |
| RES: | Oh yep. |
| Int: | By the end of the semester. |
| RES: | Yeah. And, you know, I’m learning a lot through it. And I’m learning things to change and modify and what we can do better. |
| Int: | I’m sure they are too. |
| RES: | Yeah, hopefully. |
| Int: | Do you have any other comments you want to make? |
| RES: | I guess it’s the sort of workload that DSO does create. I think a lot of people do see being online as a lot easier, and it’s not. I enjoy it. I love being online, but it’s not like you – it’s not an easier way out of things…no, not at all. Mind you, having just spent time overseas it’s been great because my students didn’t even realise that I was on the other side of the earth and I was typing away, and it’s great that you can still be teaching wherever you are in the world. And I think that is just so wonderful. It’s so flexible and, you know, it is great. But I think the time management issues and just how to deal with those, I think, those are some of the issues that I would need to look at and see how we can do it better, I guess. |
| Int: | Okay, Leicha, thank you very much. |
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