An Interview with Philip Clarke
(“Inter” refers to the interviewer, “Clarke” refers to Philip Clarke)
Inter:	Philip, I'm interested in, I guess, beginning with the broadest context and that really is the overall educational purposes or aims of the undergraduate Law programme at Deakin. Could you outline what those purposes or aims are?
Clarke:	Well, the programme has a number of aims as you might imagine. The – the first of them is to teach students substantive law to ensure they come out from the programme knowing the rules and principles of law that are applicable in Victoria and Australia generally. But in addition to that, and I think in keeping with many other programmes around the country, we also aim to develop skills, legal reasoning skills. The ability to analyse fact situation, cases, to use information gained from sources like that to solve problems to provide advice to clients and so on. Our programme would also aim to develop an interest in the law. We hope, of course, by studying it our students actually enjoy the subject matter of what they're doing, the discipline they're working in and develop an interest in it. And finally, we would hope we would be able to develop in them the ability to critically evaluate the law. We don't teach in a way that assumes that the law is perfect, that all the things that judges say and parliaments do are perfect. We would want to develop the ability to look at things critically, to look at them in the wider social context and to be able to evaluate their merits or otherwise.
Inter:	Now, Philip, I believe that the whole programme has quite a strong designed commercial law focus, and your own involvement in teaching the programme has been very much in the commercial law subject areas like contract law and commercial law and competition law and policy which is going to be the wholly online unit in the Law programme. Could you give me some idea of the particular aims and objectives of those types of those commercial law subjects in the context of the overall LLB?
Clarke:	Well, the programme did develop as you rightly say a commercial law focus right from the outset. That was done in order to give the Deakin Law programme a distinctive focus, a focus which would make it demonstrably different from existing programmes. This was thought to be important for a number of reasons including our ability to immediately develop credence within the legal community. But also it was an area which we already had expertise and we thought that we could develop a better quality programme by being somewhat more focussed rather than trying to cover every area of law known to humankind and risk the damage that that might do to our ability to cover each every one of those areas. So, by specialising we could – we could do it somewhat better. What it's meant is that throughout all parts of the programme there is, you know, constant reference back to commercial law activity. As you would imagine commercial law activity is – is very ubiquitous. There aren't very many aspects of life in Australia, given that we have a market economy and things are being increasingly privatised and so on, that doesn't have some commercial dimension to it and we try and bring that out to develop the – the kinds of skills and knowledge bases that would enable our graduates to perceive the commercial dimensions of life in Australia and be able to advise commercial clients, but also consumers who are dealing with commercial clients because a knowledge of commercial law helps consumers just as much as it helps the businesses themselves.
Inter:	I'm interested, Philip, in how you see effective teaching and learning, particularly in the area of law. I know you're very committed and developed a – a lot of expertise and competence in what you call benign Socratic dialogue, a form of a style of teaching in the classroom. Perhaps you could give some insight into what you mean by benign Socratic dialogue as the method of teaching and also some overall view of what to you counts as effective teaching and learning in law.
Clarke:	Well, what I mean by benign Socratic method is a form of Socratic teaching that doesn't involve humiliating and frightening students. One of the risks associated with Socratic teaching which, as you know, involves students having read material beforehand and being asked questions about it, is that it can be an intimidating experience for students, especially as the nature of Socratic dialogue is to constantly challenge what the student is saying. So, there is that emphasis on – on saying well, 'yes, you've said that but what about so and so'. And that can be somewhat off putting for students – intimidating for students when they're answering questions in a – a large group and so on. And so, unless it is conducted in a benign manner, a friendly manner, a manner which is supportive rather than destructive, I think it can be harmful to students. So, I've learnt over the years that is – is desirable for all concerned to be as benign as possible in your cross examination of – of the student. The method is used at Deakin and – and elsewhere for a number of reasons. It recognises that, as I've said earlier on, that developing skills and not just ensuring that people know things. So, the method is designed to, whilst ensuring that people do get a familiarity with the rules and principles of law, also develop the ability to – to analyse the facts and apply what they have learnt to new situations. So, the method would often involve trying to – to, once having analysed the case, would often involve applying that knowledge that's been acquired to a new set of situations, to both develop a knowledge and understanding of what's been learnt, but also to see how it might apply to a new situation. It's also a – a method that appeals to me because it does have the ability, I believe, in helping students to develop oral skills and – and the skills to – to argue on their feet and – and orally, which is particularly beneficial for law students. But it's also, if I may say so, beneficial for people as well.
Inter:	You mention skills and oral communication. It sort of brings to the fore the whole suite of graduate attributes, but there's one particular one that people don't talk about a lot which is to do with information literacy but relevant to the discipline or field. I know that research skills is quite an important area of development in the Law programme, how do you see this whole area of information literacy and – and legal research skills? What does it mean and – and how do you go about developing them?
Clarke:	Well, that's a very good point, Dale, if I may say so. Lawyers seem to me, of all the professions, to have just about been the one to have taken to information technology and technology generally the most. And most law firms seem to me to be relatively advanced at information technology. They're using technology to prepare documents and retrieve information and in particular to conduct research. So, it has been important for us at Deakin to try and develop those skills. And one of the benefits of DSO and the new policy of studying online has been that it's enabled us to focus on those areas and to ensure that we do develop those skills properly. So, within the – the Law programme there's a fairly sophisticated legal research site which students are encouraged to use as a way of obtaining information about various matters. We also use DSO as virtually these days as the only way of communicating with students other than being physically present in the lecture theatre. So, we have assuaged the previous practice of distributing bits of paper with outlines and – and notes and so on in favour of posting all our information to students on DSO. Material is made available to students on – on DSO. They are encouraged to use it as a way of obtaining information and developing their skills at using a computer to conduct research and obtain information about whatever they need to know – know about.
Inter:	Now, clearly we're starting to home in on online for teaching and learning, but I'm – I'm interested too in the – the broader range of learning resources that you provide students to try and get digital resources and online in that broader context and print is still important. And one thing you've done in the law is that a number of you have actually written textbooks – teaching textbooks which students use in the programme. Could you tell us a little bit about the print side of it to begin with, the purposes of the print, and the opportunities of actually authoring teaching textbooks as a key resource in the programme, and then we can start talking a little bit more about the online.
Clarke:	Yes, well you're quite right, Dale. We haven't completed abdicated the use of – of print. It – it is still there but certainly in paper form less so than it used to be. A number of people have – have written teaching textbooks. There's a Case Book Companion series that you'll be familiar with. Others have written conventional case books and these are designed to do a number of things. The first of them, the Case Book Companion series, is designed very much as a teaching tool to assist students to use the other resource the case book. They're designed to provide a very introductory flavoured text that can help set the scene for a rather more detailed study of the cases. Because going back to the Socratic method that I mentioned before, I believe that tends to work best when the students have got some sense of where the individual cases they're studying fit in the greater scheme of things. And the Case Book Companion is designed to provide that contextual material, sort of background introductory material for an area which they read and understand as a precursor to detailed examination of particular cases. Case books then, as you know, provide conveniently digested cases, statutory material, articles and so on and so forth that are studied in depth. And our experience is in common, I think, with many other people that providing this in a paper form is still perhaps the most user friendly way of providing access to cases, although increasingly people are looking at them online but it's still probably easiest to study and underline and scribble notes on a piece of paper. Now, the other resources that we use are many and varied. We do use DSO, as I've mentioned now several times, as a most convenient way of providing other text material. So, we provide information like how to moot, is made available through DSO. How to study law, how to prepare for examinations, how to tackle legal problems, how to answer exam questions and so on. All of that is made available through DSO. The research site that I've mentioned is accessed through DSO and so on. In that sense we're using DSO as a very basic level just as a way of – of communicating text which could in a previous life just have been made as easily in a booklet form but these days it can reach students more easily through DSO. We're also looking increasingly using computer based mediated things in order to improve the student learning process. So, we're increasingly developing text banks of questions and so on that students can access through DSO and get an immediate feedback on whether they got the correct answer or not to – to particular questions. And we're also trying to use it as a way of enriching teaching by making available other information. Interviews I think you've mentioned, for example, of prominent people relevant to the law. Perhaps in some case providing background information such as advertisements or whatever else that might enrich the – the teaching experience to enliven it for students, make things more visual in some cases which might enrich the – the learning process. And we're constantly seeking ways of improving our use of DSO so that the teaching experience is less dependent upon an oral exposition by a lecturer standing behind a microphone and pontificating to a weary audience of students.
Inter:	Phillip, the Faculty and particularly the School of Law have been at the forefront in at least trying to experiment with audio stream lectures, and you've mentioned before benign Socratic dialogue but it may not be so benign if it's captured in digital format and made available more broadly. It's quite a controversial area but you've done quite a bit of it. What – what are some of the pros and cons of actually converting the live lecture into a – a resource that can be studied by all in digital form?
Clarke:	Well, there are a number of pros, Dale. The first, and perhaps most obvious one, it is a means by which we can make available the lecture room experience to distance education students. People who have physically, for a variety of reasons, can't be present in the lecture room. Audio streaming the lecture enables them to listen to the lecture that has taken place. They can hear what the lecturer has to say about the – the subject matter, his or her explanation, the questions that he or she asks of students, the student answers and analyse the answers and so on and so forth. It's the best that we can do to give the off-campus student the in-lecture experience. Audio steaming also has a second advantage of doing this in a relatively – in a costless way from the – the teacher's point of view. The teacher doesn't have to spend time doing some additional piece of work in order to provide information and assistance for off-campus students because it's captured instantly, they've given the lecture anyway, there's no additional preparation or work required of them. And in an era in which increasing demands are being expected of staff members in which they are in other ways being expected to enrich their lectures and so on, you know, that's a very valuable dimension to it. A third perhaps is, which I've alluded to already perhaps is it does enable the off-campus student to experience what his or her fellow students are experiencing in the lecture. To hear what they have to say and learn from that as well. And sometimes that can be reassuring to realise that other students are experiencing difficulties which, if you're working alone without much intercourse with other students, may be a dimension that's missing from you and you might sort of think you're particularly bad when you're not and you will learn that you're not by hearing what other students have to say and witnessing the trials and tribulations that they're experiencing. The downside, the – the negative side is that it can, in the first place, be a long-winded process for the off-campus student to download the hour lecture. In an hour lecture there's a lot of white noise if you like, a lot of activity that occurs which is not necessarily constructive. Waiting for an answer to be given. The lecture asks questions; Dale, tell me the answer to this. Dale, who was thinking about something else at that moment has to gamely, what was that question again? And there's a lot of wasted time and, indeed, some people have estimated that, you know, in the hour of the lecture perhaps 15, 20, 30 minutes of it in this kind of exchange can be wasted. And if I can just elaborate on that point, if the lecture is merely an exposition in which the lecturer spends 50 minutes simply talking at the class then an audio streaming of that can be very efficient because all that the listener is getting now is the full 50 minutes of the lecturer talking. But if the lecture is a Socratic exchange between a staff member and student the way that I was mentioning a few moments ago, there is a lot of dead time. An awful lot of time can be seen as being wasted whilst the person grasps what the question is about, collects their thoughts, gives an answer, and after all of that process it might be an answer that the lecturer considers to be quite inappropriate, quite off beam and has been a waste – in one perspective a waste of the listener's time. And for that reason a number of people have questioned their usefulness. But a second dimension is that things might happen. A dynamic can sometimes take place in the lecture theatre which is very enriching for those that are there, that sort of electricity, dynamic exchange that's going on that can really help to make the lecture an exciting one for those that are present in the room. A dimension that perhaps is very important if you're lecturing between 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock on a Friday afternoon where it's warm and balmy and people are – are tired and so on and attention spans are dwindling but which it can be risky to capture the lecturer in – in a situation like that might very much be the theatrical performer, responding to the audience, and things may happen – things may be said by both the lecturer and in some cases by the students which one would not want to have captured for perpetuity through the recording system. It's fine to say it off the cuff, it's gone now forever the normal lecture environment but it is captured on the recorder then it could be embarrassing for, in some cases, for both the staff member perhaps who may have said it or the student. And if I may say so, a dimension that I don't think we've worked through properly yet is that of getting the students' permission to have the lecture recorded and sent off like this. It's an issue which – well, I don't remember anybody but me addressing and, of course, it's a very important one. We have great procedures for getting ethics approval for experimentation but we haven't developed a comparable one for – for this situation. And I am aware of instances in which, allegedly, students have said things in class which may have been defamatory or whatever of – of other people and which, you know, has much more potential for causing problems if they're recorded like this. Especially bearing in mind two things; one that there is a permanent record of it, and secondly, that the legal regime applicable to recordings might be different from that applicable to a purely oral statement in a lecture theatre.
Inter:	Philip, you – you've mentioned students and you've mentioned the off-campus students and I guess at Deakin where substantially grown our on-campus student population but we never wanted to lose focus on the particular needs of the off-campus group, which is a great concern to Deakin. You do particular things for the off-campus students in running residential weekends and also online in running what you might call e-tutorials for that group; would you like to comment on the particular needs of the off-campus student cohort and what's being done technologically to help meet their needs?
Clarke:	Yes, thank you, Dale. Well, if I can start that from the other way around and at the risk of sounding like an advertisement. It's my view that the development of technology that's occurred in the last 10 years has absolutely transformed business education, especially for law students. There was a time not that long ago when it could be argued, I think strongly, that off-campus law students were disadvantaged because they didn't have access in particular to the library. The library being an essential tool for law students comparable to a laboratory for people studying science. But the electronic availability now of material, the availability of the student to be able to go into the various legal databases and search for new cases, new statutes and so on and so forth, has meant that the distance from the library is quite irrelevant. And it's noticeable that any practising lawyers are starting to dispense with their paper libraries in favour of electronic storages and issue for them often, and what we're seeing is they're – they are realising that they can get all that they need now through their computer. It's also transformed the learning experience. Again, when we were dependent upon the mail for communicating, when letters and answering questions and so on had to be done on paper through the postal system it was laborious to do but, of course, was very time consuming as well. These days email enables people to ask questions and virtually get an instant reply, or a reply relatively quickly. DSO now enables us when a question has been raised that may be of interest to all the student body, it's a vehicle through which the lecturer can give the answer and make that available to the entire student body. DSO enables us to do things like online testing that can efficiently assist the learning of students. Because as you'll appreciate, assessment is a – an important means of assisting learning. It's not just about forming a view as to the competence at a particular point in time of the student, the very assessment regime can be designed to assist learning by both promoting a vision but also by providing feedback to students as well. And the online environment can be used to do that efficiently and quickly in a way that the postal system and so on could not. So, there are a variety of ways in which we, have I, believe, substantially enhanced the learning experience of off-campus students. And it's a method that's very valuable as far as Deakin is concerned because increasingly, and perhaps this especially is the case at postgraduate level, people who in previous eras might have gone to on-campus classes are now choosing to study online because it better suits their work or their personal circumstances. So, Deakin's expertise in this area can be used to develop innovative postgraduate programmes that are valuable to the community.
Inter:	Going back to – to a general Dean's perspective on the quality of teaching and learning environments, not only the Law programme environment but all environments, all programmes within the Faculty, Philip, reflecting on that do you see areas of great potential for future enhancement as they might relate to digital or online, but even more generally? What's your view about the areas where we can move ahead and continue to substantially improve the quality of teaching and learning?
Clarke:	I suspect that the most – well, the area in which there is the most potential for enhancement is through the online environment developing self-testing programmes and so on that will enable students to, perhaps, work at their own pace, test themselves and their own pace without the intervention of a teacher. Methods that enable us, you know, to communicate more – more effectively and efficiently as indeed we are doing now. We've discussed a few moments ago audio streaming. I think there are issues about that. There are alternatives to that which are being used by people in the Faculty, CaptureCam we mentioned. There are other programmes like that that enable a structured oral presentation to be made. Soon this will be available forwarded through video as well. These are – are methods that I think can enrich the learning experience. Not necessarily doing things that were not done before but they're doing them in a way that is more in keeping, I think, with the – the teaching needs – learning needs, I should say more accurately, of students today. But I think the focus is very much through computer mediated teaching, DSO and so on, rather than face to face which, in my experience with the exception of greater use these days of PowerPoint, with that sole exception, is pretty much as it was 20 or 30 years ago.
Inter:	Finally, Philip, what advice would you give to staff who – there are several aspects to this question, but staff who are new to Deakin but maybe more importantly are new to tertiary teaching, based on all your experience? I guess in improving their teaching or becoming effective professional tertiary educators at a place like Deakin University?
Clarke:	There are probably three key matters. The first is to emphasise the importance of being enthusiastic about teaching. Now, I was hesitating there because in a sense you are either – almost are or you aren't and it's probably difficult to fake enthusiasm if you haven't got it – but I think the first key to being a successful teacher is really to enjoy doing it; to look forward to going into the lecture theatre, not to go in hesitant or reluctantly because you really want to be doing something else. And if you are enthusiastic, or if you're not, please try and become enthusiastic, gain enthusiasm, and then demonstrate that in the classroom. Because your keenness, your enthusiasm, your desire to be there, your happiness at being in the room, can be – infuse the students. It can be contagious as far as they're concerned, it advances their learning. The second is, of course, to be orderly. It's important that material is presented and delivered in an orderly systematic way. Few things can be more damaging to a learning experience than a total disarray in the presentation of – of material. And the third thing from Deakin's perspective which we have emphasised a lot during this interview is, of course, is an appreciation that an awful lot of teaching at Deakin is done through DSO, and it's important that the person therefore becomes proficient at its use, understands what its capabilities are, and perhaps most importantly remembers to do it. One of the – the fears we sometimes have is there may be a realisation of what DSO can do but if you're also teaching on-campus students if you're not careful you can sometimes forget that there are the off-campus student who can feel neglected. It's important to make sure that you do regularly use DSO. That you're putting material in a variety of forms up on DSO each and every day so that the off-campus students feel just as much loved as the on-campus students do.
	close this window