An Interview with Ismet Fanany about teaching Indonesian online
“Int” refers to the interviewer and “ISM” refers to Ismet Fanany
Int:	I'm interviewing Ismet Fanany from the Faculty of Arts, he teaches in the discipline of Indonesian. Welcome Ismet. I wonder if you could describe your philosophy of teaching and learning and tell us how your views on this have been shaped.
ISM:	My philosophy of teaching Indonesian actually has evolved over a number of years. It is many years since I started teaching Indonesian in the United States in 1978. Basically what I am doing now is really based on the current philosophy as I understand it. I try to operate myself in terms of what is going on in language teaching in general and Indonesian in particular. But basically right now what shapes the approach of Indonesian language teaching that I am implementing at Deakin can be summarised in the following. Research has shown that there are three things that you need to pay attention to in language teaching, whether it is in designing materials or implementing the program. And that is students should be able to see the material in a significant way. Secondly they have to be able to hear the materials, and finally they have to be able to do something. And I think the current technology plays in this extremely well. If students can only look at the material for example it has been shown that they can recall the material around 45%, but if they only hear about it even less. If they can do both it is up to more than 50%. But if students can do all three: seeing, hearing and doing they can recall about 70%. And that is the sort of teaching approach that really underlies the Indonesian program at Deakin particularly with the integration of the online.
Int:	As a result of that philosophy what are the components of your online environment and what were the design considerations when you were developing it?
ISM:	Online provides the third element in particular extremely well, namely doing. However we do use online technology for the other two as well, both seeing and hearing. So these are the three considerations that we had in mind when we were designing our online materials. So then we have text online as interactive as possible. And then we have recordings of some of the text and then we have assessment. In the assessment we have semester long exercise type of assessment to maximise the doing aspect of their language learning. So that is basically the approach of our online design of the Indonesian program. So as I said those are the three basic and general categories of types of online materials if you will that we have. So the text for the students to study and to look at and so on.
Int:	Could you just elaborate a little bit on the nature of the interactivity of the text?
ISM:	The interactivity of the text relates mainly to the audio. In other words students can manipulate what they see in combination with what they hear, so for example when they play the audio part online then they can choose to look at certain types of text. So for example if it is a compilation then they may want to look at the Indonesian version of the dialogue or the English version, so it is interactive in that way. So by simply clicking their mouse then they can choose to look at which type of text and that is a very important element of interactivity of the text that we have of language learning of Indonesia.
Int:	Do you have print and CD-ROM as well or is it all online now?
ISM:	We have print as well as CD-ROM but the online version of those are slightly different. For example in the written text the core materials in the text are also online but supporting materials in the text, in the language learning that we have in the text but we do not have online. Similarly the audio CD that we have is much more elaborate than what we have online because there are a lot of supporting materials beyond the core materials that we have on CD that we do not have online.
Int:	So what was your reason for putting some of it online but having more elaborate components on CD and in print?
ISM:	The online first of all is not as accessible to students as text and CD and because of that what we put online are only the core materials that will maximise their seeing, learning, but most importantly the doing. So what we have online is the core materials done in a way so that students can do a lot with it. They can hide the sound, they can hide the text, and they can manipulate the exercises that we have in the book in an interactive format and so on. So what we have online then is not the quantity that is important but the quality with regard to the their types that I discussed earlier. Some of the exercises for example can be manipulated by the students online not just in terms of choosing which exercise they want at a given time which by the way is very important to us. We believe in the non-linear type of learning as well so that is another aspect that online is absolutely great about. We know that in language perhaps in other subjects as well students come with different backgrounds and to restrict them to a completely linear approach may not suit everybody's background and learning styles and that sort of interactive aspect of online is maximised in our program.
Int:	Now you mentioned that you use online quizzes, could you just describe how you use them and why you use them and in what ways you believe they help student learning.
ISM:	Actually not just quizzes we have quite extensive assessment online as you probably know. Quiz is only one part of our extensive assessment online. There are three types of assessment online that we have in Indonesian. The first one is the exercises we call it, but it is assessed. It contributes to the student's final grade, that is why it is part of the assessment. But we made it available online throughout the semester and the students can access them as often as they want. In other words there is a potential for them to get 100 in every single one of them if they choose to.
Int:	Okay are they graded?
ISM:	Yes they are graded but there is a large number of them and they have to do it on the weekly basis. While they are available throughout the semester to look at, but for them to do it is available on a weekly basis. So for example if part A of lesson one is done in week one of the semester all exercises associated with part A of lesson one must be done in week one. They are not available in week two. But during week one, they can do it as often as they like. So there is potential for them to get 100% of that. The pedagogical reason for that is we want everyone to do as many exercises as we want them to do for each of the lessons that we are doing in a particular week. We believe it contributes to their learning even though there is potential for them to get 100%, it is doing it that is important. The exercises are designed accordingly in terms of number, complexity, comprehensiveness of language and so on. And then the second type of assessment is the quiz which is your question. We give a certain amount of quizzes in a semester. In year one for example they have to do five quizzes and the unit guide explains from the very beginning what week each of the quizzes in available on DSO. And again they are going to be available on DSO for the whole week but unlike exercises they can access it only once for a limited amount of time, just like quizzes in the classroom.
Int:	Can they look at it and not do it?
ISM:	They can, but they can't come back to it again. They will get 0%. …
Int:	Okay so they can only get in there once and they have to do it and submit it.
ISM:	And in a limited amount of time 50 minutes. So that is the second one, so unlike exercises this is much more like other quizzes or exams and so on. So they will have to do it in one sitting, there will be no time for them to look at their notebook even if they wanted because the time is counting down and so they have to deal with that. So we will restrict the time. So that is the second type.
Int:	And what percentage of the overall assessment is the quiz?
ISM:	The quiz is 20%. So that is quite significant, but we believe the students are already helped by doing their weekly exercises on DSO which they can do as often as they like and they can get 100% if they choose to by coming back to it any time and as often as they want. And finally what we also have is the final, so at the end of the year the final assessment is also done on DSO for us. And it is much like the quiz except of course it is a one time thing. It will cover the material for the semester with a limited amount of time on DSO that they can access only once. Why do we do this? Why is it so extensive? Well, we believe and I think that is part of the question as to why, DSO has really compelled us to look at the language program very hard in terms of two things. One is what is it about language learning that the students can do on their own, and what is it about language learning that the students should do with us, lecturers. And the traditional method of assessment we believe is something that doesn't need us to be there in some of them like the literature assessment. But there are assessment that we have to be there like an oral assessment so why should we spend class time in thirteen weeks which are already limited in the first place to do all of these quizzes that we can do outside of the classroom. So we are really led by that sort of consideration. Things that students can do on their own, they do on their own. That is what DSO is for. And so that is really the reason why we do it like this in the extensive manner.
Int:	Do you use the online discussion and in what way does it contribute to their learning?
ISM:	Yes and in particular this is most helpful in the higher level units actually. We give them discussion topics as well as discussion guidelines for them to discuss among themselves online in Indonesian with us picking and giving comments here and there. And we find it more popular as well as more useful at the higher level. In say third year level up where the language units have both the language skills aspect as well as the subject matter aspect and we find that most useful at that level.
Int:	What were your experiences, I know you have had this going for a period of time so can you just tell us how that experience has gone over that time and also how the students have experienced it?
ISM:	Well as you know we have been doing this technology thing at Deakin even before DSO came so I can tell you that we in Indonesian are very excited about DSO because it allows us to do all of these things that the previous technology couldn't and we are absolutely ecstatic about assessment for example. Students' reaction varies. Some hate it and we have students who say we don't want this we want face to face. But we explain to them that all of the things they do on DSO they don't need us they can do on their own.
Int:	You still do have face to face classes?
ISM:	Oh yes absolutely we still have face to face classes and right now for example we have three face to face classes a week for the first, second and third year. So of course we do. But some students believe that they want more face to face however the majority is that they like online. One of the main aspects of online that they like very very much is the freedom to do the course according to their own schedule and as you know many students at Deakin and perhaps in Australia have jobs and so the majority really say that this is great. Not only can they can learn on their own now, very often they can go online to DSO at the office or they can listen to the audio CD on the way to work and so on. Assessment again the majority like it because they can do it on their own, they can get their grades right away in the case of quizzes and final. In the case of exercises mentioned earlier they can get the feedback and then come back again and redo it.
Int:	What sort of feedback is it?
ISM:	How many they get right, as well as what questions they get wrong? And so they can go back again and redo it. So they like that immediate feedback the DSO has.
Int:	So they are told what they get wrong but they are not told exactly what the nature of the error is? They have got to go back and find out?
ISM:	Actually they also get the feedback on the nature of the error and that is the thing. Either you don't get the feedback at all or the feedback should include what the answer is because that is already in the DSO, so we cannot separate those two at this stage. However it does not matter because they still have to go back to the questions and actually do it again to get full credit. So in a sense while they know the answer they still have to perform according to get a credit. So the doing part still has be done, and that in itself is a benefit.
Int:	So what impact do you think your teaching in all of this digital media has had on student learning?
ISM:	I think in terms of achievement in the end, I haven't done any research since the first year. The first year of DSO we did a research the result of which I presented at one of the university conferences that you know about. And that time one of the aspects of online that I looked at was the results. The students in that year did better than the previous years for example. And the difference is negligible. It is slightly better but negligible. What we also noticed is that the students can get very high marks and very low marks with this online assessment thing because I suppose the difference between that and when we grade the papers we do not want to give the students 0 usually if they make an effort. We look at the quality of the efforts and then assign them some grades. But online it is either/or, so while aggregates show slight improvement in DSO while not statistically not significant but the spread of the results is larger. We do not have more people fail for example.
Int:	Do you think the work that they do online helps them with their oral language in class?
ISM:	For them to come to the tutorials? Absolutely. And I think the online helps them perform not just orally but in their writing as well. There is a strong correlation between how well they do in DSO and in writing.
Int:	So the students who do more of the online work perform better in the writing. But how do you know they are not just the better students anyway?
ISM:	Well we can look at that from the experience in the previous years as well, that is one thing with the DSO. And the second thing and you are right there is evidence that good students tend to do more online things more then bad students anyway but what I believe is that those good students will get better results doing a lot of those DSO things on a regular basis than if they didn't do it. That is the point that is also important.
Int:	Yes okay. How would you like to further develop your online environment or your teaching materials in the future?
ISM:	One of the issues that we have not addressed satisfactorily at this stage yet in terms of technology is in what way we can maximise it for our off-campus students not so much for our on-campus students. One of the reasons for that is while the students can prepare better now in my view with online the interactive aspect of it has not been helped by technology to replace the face to face for the on campus. So when Ian Smissen mentioned at the end of last year and we talked about it at the beginning of this year about this Elluminate thing and the possibility of this kind of interactive activity online. Now I am quite excited about that. And I think right now that is sort of future direction and development as far as the Indonesian language program at Deakin is concerned that I would like to seriously look into.
Int:	That would be the logical next step for you wouldn't it?
ISM:	Yes and in particular I believe that is going to be very relevant to our off-campus students. Like I said that is one aspect that we have not got a good answer to. But I think Elluminate have some promise.
Int:	Is there any further comments you would like to make about the online experience?
ISM:	I think the technology aspect of that is something that we do not always have consistent experience with it yet. There is nothing worse than having technical problems in technology in terms of the impact of that on the students' attitudes. Students are not very tolerant about that it turns them off. If their textbook is torn or the binding comes off they are much more tolerant to that than if they cannot log on to the DSO when they want to.
Int:	They can still see the words of the textbook I guess.
ISM:	Indonesian I think that risk for us is higher because we have so much regular work that the students have to do on the weekly basis, works that are assessed and will contribute to their grades. So you cannot blame them if they are quite annoyed by that or frustrated, and some students are simply very worried so it affects them unnecessarily so.
Int:	I see. Okay thank you very much Ismet.
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